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# 💭 Title 💬 👥 🙋 Last editor 🕒 (UTC)
1 Long-term disputes on various wikis involving a cross-wiki IP author 14 3 Sarcelles 2024-12-02 12:08
2 Lokalbahn Linz 7 3 Enhancing999 2024-11-26 23:04
3 Flag of France 17 4 Matrix 2024-11-29 18:24
4 audios made by User:Flame, not lame (again) 1 1 Rodrigo5260 2024-11-26 16:39
5 New calendar templates 2 2 TheDJ 2024-11-30 12:32
6 Media of the day, new look 1 1 RoyZuo 2024-11-26 17:22
7 Moving inclines 3 3 Rudolph Buch 2024-11-26 23:55
8 Defective old files 7 3 RoyZuo 2024-12-01 18:54
9 Odd categorisation by user 27 6 Enhancing999 2024-12-01 17:39
10 iOS Commons app is no more 11 5 Prototyperspective 2024-12-02 11:45
11 Category:Snow tires vs. Category:Winter tires 5 4 Jmabel 2024-12-02 01:13
12 Invitation to the upcoming Commons Community Calls -- December 12, 2024 1 1 Sannita (WMF) 2024-11-29 10:00
13 Template:DeepcatSearch 10 3 Prototyperspective 2024-12-01 19:56
14 Tmbox improvments 3 2 Matrix 2024-11-30 12:04
15 Broken upload? 3 2 Pigsonthewing 2024-11-29 21:45
16 Commons Gazette 2024-12 1 1 RoyZuo 2024-12-01 08:56
17 I found a really strangely formatted file 4 3 RadioKAOS 2024-12-01 22:49
18 CropTool not working again 1 1 RadioKAOS 2024-12-01 23:13
19 A type of monument that needs a category 10 4 Jmabel 2024-12-02 20:20
20 Brakes 12 6 Thgoiter 2024-12-02 20:14
21 Search for image orientation and similar parameters 1 1 Grin 2024-12-02 16:22
22 RIP JarrahTree 4 4 Abzeronow 2024-12-03 18:03
23 Clarification Regarding the Appearance of the "Infobox" Template 2 2 Abzeronow 2024-12-03 20:25
24 Cooked food in supermarkets 1 1 RoyZuo 2024-12-03 22:52
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November 13

Long-term disputes on various wikis involving a cross-wiki IP author

There are numerous disputes involving an IP user indulging in cross-wiki spam, particularly articles on West Germanic varieties. I am hounded for a while.

The probable IP adresses indlude:

2003:de:3717:716f:e95b:e6c7:5bb:48f5
2003:DE:370C:38E4:4448:5249:EA82:E5FA
2003:DE:3717:718E:65C8:BEBB:58D6:1D36
2003:DE:3717:716F:5DCE:8967:6BA9:C376
2003:DE:3700:A013:B8D1:4127:BE29:FBC6


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2003:DE:370C:38E4:4448:5249:EA82:E5FA has a current block. This probably is the same person. A particular hobby of this user is to revert me on wiktionary, if I write that Hollandic isn't part of Low German. What shoukl — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarcelles (talk • contribs) 17:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarcelles: Is this some sort of request for administrative action? If so, it belongs on the appropriate Administrators' noticeboard, not on the Village pump. Conversely, if it is something you are just bringing up for general discussion, I don't know what you want discussed. - Jmabel ! talk 18:37, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
None of these accounts have edited in recent weeks, some not in as long as half a year, so it is hard to imagine what anyone can do about this at this point. - Jmabel ! talk 18:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2A01:599:30A:8340:4A39:F118:FF32:1257 is a recently used reincarnation. Sarcelles (talk) 18:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2003:DE:371A:22A6:78F9:E411:9550:9ED4
the block log says:
8.11.2024, 21:12:36: Surjection blocked 2003:DE:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 (block log), expiring 8.12.2024, 21:12:36 (Abusing multiple accounts/block evasion: 2003:DE:371A:22A9:319A:E2C4:1B5A:C283)
5.11.2024, 06:03:47: Surjection blocked 2003:DE:3710:0:0:0:0:0/44 (block log), expiring 18.11.2024, 21:40:20 (Disruptive edits: xwiki povpushing: see w:Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Naramaru) Sarcelles (talk) 20:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2003:DE:371A:22A9:319A:E2C4:1B5A:C283
8.11.2024, 21:12:36: Surjection blocked 2003:DE:0:0:0:0:0:0/32 (block log), expiring 8.12.2024, 21:12:36 (Abusing multiple accounts/block evasion: 2003:DE:371A:22A9:319A:E2C4:1B5A:C283)
5.11.2024, 06:03:47: Surjection blocked 2003:DE:3710:0:0:0:0:0/44 (block log), expiring 18.11.2024, 21:40:20 (Disruptive edits: xwiki povpushing: see w:Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Naramaru) Sarcelles (talk) 20:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3ADeutsche_Mundarten.png&diff=948595578&oldid=946447257 was a removal of the deletion message, probably by the same IP. Sarcelles (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whatta bunch of nonsense … -- MicBy67 (talk) 00:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
File:Niederfränkisch.png is a file of this kind. It attempts to picture Low Franconian varieties in Europe. It has the following threefold-division:
  • A minor transitional area to Low Saxon, in the Netherlands
  • East Bergish running from near the city centre of Essen to Westphalia, also quite small#
  • A somehow larger area cutting through all of the following: an arrondissement bordering to Brussels, Antwerp province, Dutch Limburg, Belgian Limburg, Duisburg, Düsseldorf, Wuppertal, German-speaking Belgium and French-speaking Belgium.
Sarcelles (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I missed the part covering most of the area. Sarcelles (talk) 11:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is called Nordniederfränkisch (North Low Franconian) and running from France to Holland, Friesland province, Brussels and Westphalia. Sarcelles (talk) 11:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederfrankisch.png is a typical example. It includes the concept of South Guelderish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:South_Guelderish casts major doubt on the feasability of the concept. I have started to link this section on Wikipedia talk pages, the most recent example being https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Limburgish. Sarcelles (talk) 16:13, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have mentioned this issue on https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overleg:Limburgs as well today. Sarcelles (talk) 12:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 25

Flag of France

Moved from Commons:Administrators' noticeboard

Hi. France had changed its flag since 2020. However, the names of the files are incorrect, making the flag cannot be updated in all wiki pages. I suggest moving File:Flag of France.svg to File:Flag of France (1976-2020).svg while moving File:Flag of France (1794–1815, 1830–1974, 2020–present).svg to File:Flag of France.svg. These should be moved at same time to prevent the change by the bot. Пусть от победы☆к победе ведёт! 10:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

✓ Done —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 12:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(note: moved to [1] instead) —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 12:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matrix: have you checked this RfC? M.Bitton (talk) 11:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: There's precedent to move files to new names when the flag is updated, e.g. File:Flag of Kyrgyzstan.svg, File:Flag of Mauritania.svg, File:Flag of Malawi.svg, File:Air Force Ensign of India.svg etc. The discussion (not RfC) you linked also has 5 1/2 agree votes vs 3 oppose votes, and 5.5 > 3 so seems like a rough consensus to me. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 19:57, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matrix: my bad for linking to the discussion when I actually meant the RfC that the discussion was based on. I didn't know that there was such a rule as "precedent" on Commons, but since there is one, we might as well make full use of it and change the colours of the flag according to this official source (which would make it closer to the one that was replaced). Please let me know what you think. M.Bitton (talk) 02:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: You seem to have misunderstood the source you linked. It looks to be defining a colour palette for French government websites rather than talking about the flag. Indeed there is no mention of a flag on the page. Pinging @Jean-Frédéric and Christian Ferrer: who can verify this as French speakers. A good source that agrees the current version is the official Ggvernment flag is Britannica.
Also, about your point "I didn't know that there was such a rule as "precedent" on Commons", what I mean is that usually flags are moved to new names when updated, so it wouldn't make sense to not do it in this scenario. RfCs at enwiki don't really affect Commons, also noting that enwiki decided to upload their own locally hosted file for the French flag. Even if we ignore precedent, the Commons discussion you linked has 5.5 people who want to have the new flag under this file name, and 3 people against. This is similar to consensus found at Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2024/06#Renaming of File:Air Force Ensign of India (2023).svg. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matrix: it's true that those colours are not specifically about the flag, but being part of the symbols of the French republic, they are the closest thing we have to the official colours of the flag (French blue, white and Marian red), which is also shown here (and described as the flag). Most of those who supported the change where in fact supporting what they perceived as the official flag, whose precise colours were/are unknown. M.Bitton (talk) 17:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: The current file is at least close to the official/default flag, per [2] and other sources. The other flag is an alternate official flag. Whilst the exact shades of dark can be debated due to varying digital interpretations, it's clear the URL here has shades that are definitely not close to the current official flag's shades. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 18:49, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Matrix: since the other sources don't mention the exact colours, all we're left with is guesswork (depending on the light, the camera angle, etc). The flag that is used on the government website is as official as it can get and in line with the official colours. M.Bitton (talk) 18:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: moving this to village pump rather than AN FYI. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 18:59, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's guesswork to say the colours here are very much lighter than those displayed on the background here. This is clearly a variant of the non-default official flag than the current default one. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 19:02, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I personally don't see the point in guessing the colours when we have the official ones. Also, Britannica (cited above) hasn't changed the flag since at least 2020. M.Bitton (talk) 19:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point about Britannica. I still think that whilst we don't have official colours, we know the new flag has a dark navy blue shade, which is not shown on the government website. Again, the government website link is just a colour scheme, presumably because the navy blue would clash with black elements. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 19:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's more than a simple colour scheme, it's part of the symbols of the French Republic. They also have a flag on their website that uses the same colours.
For what it's worth, they also look similar to what is displayed on the background here (photo from 2024). M.Bitton (talk) 19:22, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@M.Bitton: I think this is just a product of having two official flags. The lighter shade only seems to be used to match the EU shade of blue, but in most other circumstances the darker shade is perferred. I checked this with Google Images. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 18:24, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • * Comment I was pinged above as a french speaker, 1/ actually the French Flag is definited by the 2nd article of the French Constitution "L'emblème national est le drapeau tricolore, bleu, blanc, rouge.", litteraly traduced by "The national emblem is the tricolor flag, blue, white, red". Neither more nor less. The French Constitution is above all the other "common" laws, decrees, orders, circulars, ect... of the country, and 2/ it is also therefore of course above this page which is a graphic charter for government communication and public action. That don't mean that this charter is not relevant, it just mean that it can change tomorrow, next year or never. Now, if you ask me if we must update our French Flags here, or create new ones, or renames them... clearly I don't know. Hopes I helped. [this is a copy of my comment in the Adm. noticeboard] Christian Ferrer (talk) 21:44, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 26

New calendar templates

I made 2 new templates Template:Monthly archive table Template:Monthly calendar which can be customised to automatically make calendar-like tables of contents. Monthly archive table is partly inspired by https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Village_pump_archives&oldid=908053133 .

I hope these templates are more mobile friendly than text based TOC, which often is not auto adjusted to page width. The TOC should also be new on top and old on bottom, since more recent archives are more relevant for current users.

You can see their effect on com:motd (as long as the new design is kept).--RoyZuo (talk) 17:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work ! Thank you for doing this. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:32, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 27

Defective old files

What to do with defective files like Special:Redirect/page/22745428? it was surely once used, but it's not used anymore and maybe became defective because of svg code incompatibility? RoyZuo (talk) 16:36, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it as an archive. It's the vector source for File:Guangzhou west.png and File:Guangzhou east.png, so if anyone ever wants to update those, they'll need this file. It's not actually defective either. It's not rendering properly on Commons, but it was never meant to in the first place. El Grafo (talk) 11:17, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But it doesnt render well in firefox or chrome either? RoyZuo (talk) 12:51, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
✓ Done The file should render correctly now. ReneeWrites (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ReneeWrites thx for fixing! is there a template to mark these SVG? i found more. RoyZuo (talk) 09:27, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@RoyZuo: I couldn't find a template like that, so I made {{BrokenSVG}}. ReneeWrites (talk) 12:42, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ReneeWrites thx a lot! I just found out that it's possible to use {{Broken file|filetype=SVG}} which puts files in Category:SVG files with errors. RoyZuo (talk) 18:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Odd categorisation by user

I'm not sure where to report it, but my watchlist is flooded by a user who obsessively moves photographs I took from normal categories, then removes these categories, and then tags these categories as "Unuseful empty categories" (another example here). They tend to have a very idiosyncratic way of organising and I wanted to ask in the village pump regarding a different matter, but I just find this behaviour quite weird. As far as I know, I follow the same category system as already existed at the Wikimedia Commons and nobody had any issue with it until I photographed parts of Rotterdam, which this person seems to see as "his city" or something. Emptying categories like this seems like a form of vandalism. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 18:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The original issue I wanted to bring up was their odd categorisation where they ascribe their own definitions to the boundaries of neighbourhoods, despite official sources disagreeing and when I pointed this out they just appealed to Wikipedia as authority, despite Wikipedia not even backing up what they claimed. Though I still wanted to bring this up at a later point as I'm both too busy IRL and with other projects for these kinds of unproductive drama, so I'll discuss that in detail when I'll nominate the category for a CfD. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 18:17, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Donald Trung: Hi, Did you talk to this user? Yann (talk) 18:19, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yann, I've tried in the past but they rarely respond and often seem hostile. A recent example is here where they claim that the name they chose is "gangbare taalgebruik" (how people call it) despite the website of the government of Rotterdam itself disagreeing with these terms being synonymous and they claiming that Wikipedia is correct, but the map Wikipedia uses doesn't even mark it under the same name and the website of the municipality notes that it's only a part of it. But that isn't the issue, the issue is them removing categories simply because they don't want my works to show up in any of the main categories. This is odd, imagine if someone would remove all categories of a work you published and simply replace it with "photographs by Yann" which would normally even be a hidden category. I've just never seen a user act like this. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 18:26, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another example, this category had dozens of files before it was nominated as "The given reason is: CSD C2 (unuseful empty category)". The files weren't placed in any other sign categories, just completely removed. This category itself had a number of sub-categories, all emptied and tagged as "Unuseful empty categories". --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 18:33, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Donald Trung: As I recall our contact started on a fair and friendly base, yet I was (and I am) critical towards your work , see here. -- Mdd (talk) 16:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks. I requested Mdd to come here to discuss this. Yann (talk) 18:43, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Screenshot of Category Delfshaven 27 nov 2024 at 19.45

Thanks for sharing your concern. I uploaded a screenshot of the current state of the Category Delfshaven. I brought it back to the basics to start expanding it again on lower levels. -- Mdd (talk) 18:54, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mdd, and how are signs, for example, not a good category for Delfshaven? Why are street signs in Delfshaven not a sub+category of street signs in Rotterdam? — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 18:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I fail to see how "Symbols of Delfshaven" fits into "Views of Delfshaven". Symbols of a place are an important top level category as it includes things like coats of arms, emblems, logos, Etc. while a "view" sounds more like a photograph. -- Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment I reverted some speedy deletion requests by Mdd. Such issues require a discussion, and cannot be speedy deleted. Yann (talk) 19:38, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I can restore the content of those categories (and list those categories in a separate Category Objects in Delfshaven like I did before in the Category Kleiwegkwartier) if there are no objections. Then a fair assessment can be made. Even more, I might supplement those content with some new works (yet to be made/or uploaded) and then most discussion might not be needed (yet). -- Mdd (talk) 15:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mdd: Please stop replacing topical categories such as Category:Bus stop signs in Delfshaven with user categories you created on behalf of the user such as Category:Photographs in Delfshaven in 2023 by Donald Trung.
when creating users categories, please ensure the user is ok with that. Also, don't mix them with topical categories.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 09:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment To add to this, user categories are treated as separate from mainspace categories. So files in Category:Photographs in Delfshaven in 2023 by Donald Trung should still be in Category:2023 in Delfshaven - this is not considered overcategorization. And like Enhancing999 said, user categories shouldn't be mixed with mainspace categories, Category:Photographs in Delfshaven in 2023 by Donald Trung isn't a subcat of Category:2023 in Delfshaven, see COM:USERCAT for a more detailed explanation. ReneeWrites (talk) 16:43, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thx @Enhancing999: , yet I didn't replaces the Category:Bus stop signs in Delfshaven. I just removed its content ( and now just offered to restore that situation) What I did was moving one part of Category:2023 in Delfshaven to the subcat Category:Photographs in Delfshaven in 2023 by Donald Trung, which is indeed meant in this way as a service to all audiences. People can see the contributions of Donald Trung that year and can get a clear overview of other contributions.
So I disagree with your addition turning the sub-category into a user-category, and would like to have this restored (as ReneeWrites also suggest if I am not mistaken). In this matter I agree with Donald Trung initial statement that this is an odd/other way of categorizing. I can explain, but will leave it with this fo now. -- Mdd (talk) 15:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My main issue is with the fact that you essentially try to "hide" these works under non-topical categories, you seem to be under the impression that this is some sort of "art project", but I was inspired to take photographs of "the mundane" and "the every day" after I read a number of local history books while I was volunteering at an elderly care facility, those books often contain images of old signs, old infrastructure, streets, Etc. Most photographs I see at the Wikimedia Commons tend to be of already well-known art or monuments, sometimes WikiPhotographers would go to a village, take the same pictures of the same church or windmill everyone else has already photographed while ignoring all the things people deem "too mundane". I believe that it is precisely these "mundane" things that have more educational and historical value than monuments that are largely unchanged for decades or centuries and will remain largely unchanged for decades or centuries. This isn't a "genre" of photography and I doubt someone looking for "old" (from a future perspective) street name signs or manhole covers would be interested in shops or vice versa as being somehow something special. In fact, in case of outdoor electrical enclosures many are being replaced as we speak / write and can already be considered "an obsolete / a historical" version. As for your criticism of the quality, I use a smartphone and I can't always get the best lighting, but plenty of newspapers from all over the world have found my works good enough to be included in them, yet the last time you criticised me for providing works that "aren't used as much on Wikipedia", the Wikimedia Commons is more than just Wikipedia, plenty of images of mine I've seen in local newspapers, the NL Times, or DutchNews.com wouldn't necessarily be used for Wikipedia, educational works have more use cases than just an online encyclopedia. The topical category system helps people find what they want or need, "works by a specific photographer in a specific location" isn't as handy of a category to use. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 17:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing I noticed is that people often miss areas of monuments they photograph, like angles, and I often take a horizontal and vertical picture because those have separate use cases, for example when people make vertical videos on on-line services like Instagram and TikTok, or small columns in a newspaper, while horizontal works are a better fit for example videos on Google's YouTube or books. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 17:23, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a slight misunderstanding. User categories are categories specific to Commons users, and the category you created for Donald Trung's photography is a user category. These categories aren't treated the same way "Photographs by photographer"-subcats are treated for non-Commons users. ReneeWrites (talk) 18:07, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a diff for my comment about replacing topical categories with user categories: [3].
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 12:15, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ReneeWrites indeed I think I misunderstood your comment. I beg the difference. To make my self more clear I have made an demonstration by creating the Category:Photographs in Rotterdam in 2024 by Marcel Douwe Dekker. This is also not a user-category, but just subcategory. I will proceed... -- Mdd (talk) 18:31, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In this particular matter the person, the photographer Marcel Douwe Dekker, is just the same as the person, the photographer Donald Trung. There is an artist who just died, Q.S. Serafijn... which wasn't its real name. There ar tons of authors publishing under a fancy name... etc., etc. This is all the same. -- Mdd (talk) 18:36, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Usercats can utilize both a person's username or real name (see COM:USERCAT), but they're still usercats. The categories you created for yourself are usercats, as well. ReneeWrites (talk) 18:48, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Yann: Sorry for bothering you about this, but I think it would be helpful if someone more knowledgeable on Commons policy could take a closer look at the situation. The issue is user categories and whether these categories (for Mdd & Donald Trung) are considered user categories, or not. ReneeWrites (talk) 21:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, these are user categories. I added {{Hiddencat}} to both of them. Yann (talk) 10:58, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do note that user categories are already hidden. For user categories, {{Hiddencat}} really just adds a note saying that they are hidden. - Jmabel ! talk 17:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The general approach by Mdd to categorize images by year rather than by topic within Category:Rotterdam is also not helpful.
Replacing actual topical subcategories with year or date subcategories should be a no go.
To fix this mess, one could readd to the main category all images that haven only been added in subcategories by date/user/photographer/collection/etc.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 12:23, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are now CfDs on two aspects:

 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 17:39, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 28

iOS Commons app is no more

Dear ALL it seems that since few days ago (independent) iOS Commons app Wiki Uploader is no more (has not been maintained since a while, but now gone from Apple's App Store).

As F/L/OSS advocate I am always favoring open hardware/software/services/standards (understand communal preference to focus on Android as platform), but this is second time that we do not have any mobile app for iPhone (in the time when iPhone is literary celebrated by professionals for its lens quality and software).

Is there a way to do something about cross-plaform portability of the Commons App code so that iOS can have at least basic app supported by WMF or establish a minimal support for indy developers to have one maintained in sustainable way?

--Zblace (talk) 16:52, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is a current wish at m:Community Wishlist/Wishes/IOS Commons App that you could support. Commander Keane (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Commander Keane how exactly can I support it? It does not look like and active process. Zblace (talk) 15:45, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a former app developer (and one of the developers working on the first versions of mobile Wikipedia)... Cross platform development is not really a golden ticket. Or rather.. that is what the web is for.
If you want a cross platform app, there are some solutions, but it should not be underestimated how much time you will still have to spend working on very platform specific things, that now have to fit into a multiplatform straightjacket.
What you are seeing here is the cost of quality. Development (esp mobile) is expensive. And the few very good floss mobile apps you see, are essentially built on the backs of a lot of available time and dedication by singular very skilled developers. These are the exceptions, most apps lack either the time, the skill or the interest of people. The point here being, that i would not focus on the technology too much. The right people tend to be a bigger differentiator here (or money, but that isn't going to happen). —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:28, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheDJ not sure I understand your arguments. We had several unofficial but non-terrible iOS apps for Commons photo uploads, but it seems none were given any support in any way. Zblace (talk) 15:48, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The best solution might be to make file uploading an add-on for the official Wikipedia app. GPSLeo (talk) 17:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zblace I will reply down here if you don't mind. Regarding supporting the wish, I would recommend adding a {{Support}} to the talk page and a comment on why you think it is important. I am pretty sure the WMF looks at activity on the wishlist. Commander Keane (talk) 21:53, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Commander Keane really? Is there an example of wishlist item being taken on based on this (sorry if I sound cynical but historically it was not the case AFAIK) Zblace (talk) 11:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@GPSLeo easy to agree to extend Wikipedia app with photo upload, but I kind of doubt that will be done unless there is huge preassure from contributing and developer communities to extend the app in that direction. Zblace (talk) 10:58, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zblace, perhaps adding {{Support}} for the wish was a bit misleading (WMF employees don't want that action for some unknown reason) but still I think the wishlist is the main way to get attention for an iOS app, with adding a love token on Phabricator and directly approaching WMF board members the only other ways I can think of. Anecdotally I have noticed a WMF product manager participating, hence my assumption that the WMF is watching the wishlist. Take a look at the status column at m:Community Wishlist Survey 2022/Results to see examples of wishes from a previous year that were taken on. Dark mode would be another example of something implemented. Having said all that I am also cynical about the situation, but you can only try and stranger things have happened. Commander Keane (talk) 05:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tracked in GitHub
commons-app/apps-android-commons/issues/5828


Agree with what you said Keane. As for adding things to the Wikipedia app (which has an iOS version) I don't know if it's feasible to make the WP app extendable – one could install a plugin for iOS Commons features or even Commons to the much better known more popular iOS-compatible Wikipedia app (but it would require a lot of development to match the Commons app functionality so I think it's probably easier to convert the app to iOS which may be readily possible with some effort despite that it's not been developed with some cross-platform framework with which it would have been very easy.) Prototyperspective (talk) 11:45, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Snow tires vs. Category:Winter tires

Is it the same and should be merged? To me (and my dictionary) both expressions are synonyms. Or if there are differences, they should be defined/explained. And the categories should be somehow linked or in the same category tree. --тнояsтеn ⇔ 18:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, the wikipedia article en:Snow tire does not differentiate: "Snow tires, also known as winter tires, ..." --тнояsтеn ⇔ 19:04, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment I think those two categories can be regarded as same.
This site mentions to the topic, but I still don't know what the difference is in the end. In any case, they can be merged as the categories are not so bloated that they need to be differentiated. --Tmv (talk) 10:45, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Support merging the two. ReneeWrites (talk) 23:36, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge. Even if there is a subtle distinction in how some people use the term, having future uploaders obey that distinction is hopeless. - Jmabel ! talk 01:13, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

November 29

Invitation to the upcoming Commons Community Calls -- December 12, 2024

Hello everyone! The Wikimedia Foundation will be hosting the second round of a series of community calls to help prioritize support efforts from Wikimedia Foundation for the 2025-2026 Fiscal Year.

The purpose of these calls is to support community members in hearing more from one another - across uploaders, moderators, GLAM enthusiasts, tool and bot makers, etc. - about the future of Commons. There is so much to discuss about the general direction of the project, and we hope that people from different perspectives can think through some of the tradeoffs that will shape Commons going forward.

Our second call will focus on new media and new contributors. More specifically the questions will be:

  1. There are periodic requests from the community for more support to contribute and edit audio and video files. At the same time, the community seems to be struggling under the current weight of uncategorized images and various patrolling backlogs. Does the community have the capacity to respond to substantially increased uploads of this media?
  2. What is the right level of friction for new content uploads? Should we prioritize support for easier contribution or continue to introduce friction that reduces moderator burden?

The call will take place at two different time slots:

If you cannot attend the meeting, you are invited to express your point of view at any time you want on the Commons community calls talk page. We will also post the notes of the meeting on the project page, to give the possibility to read what was discussed also to those who couldn’t attend it.

If you want, you are invited to share this invitation with all the people you think might be interested in this call.

We hope to see you and/or read you very soon! Sannita (WMF) (talk) 10:00, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:DeepcatSearch

Template:DeepcatSearch i made this template (reusing idea behind MediaWiki:Gadget-DeepcatSearch.js) which can be added to cat pages to give links for everyone to quickly preview files scattered across all subcats, so now not only registered users using the gadget but every single visitor of the website can have this functionality. you can see a demo at Category:Kylie Minogue by year. RoyZuo (talk) 11:57, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea, looks great! It's important to note that it currently doesn't yet work for all categories, see phab:T376440 including the comment with 3 ideas for how users could be enabled to configure what is / is not shown & how many levels it should scan.
I'm not sure if that second button "Preview all files (detail)" is useful however, the page it leads to looks old and outdated and the info shown is not really useful (in your example it's This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.0 Generic license. You are free: to share and the filetitle; it may be better to enable users to see the filetitle in the MediaSearch…maybe even a toggle-type button to see filetitle & first x chars of file description in the MediaSearch wall of images).
Furthermore, I don't know how the files are sorted on the results page (Relevance) and here are several proposals for improving the sorting. Lastly, I think it would be better if this was some sort of integrated functionality rather than a manually added template (e.g. because there's so many categories) and maybe the category search box could be added along with it or get integrated into this template (see an example for that at Category:Our World in Data). Prototyperspective (talk) 12:54, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1 template does 1 thing.
for a jumbo tool, i also made Template:Category helper putting everything i like together.
it could possibly be integrated with {{Metacat}} so that it gets automatically transcluded to all cat pages with "PAGESINCATEGORY:categoryname|subcats"<256. all the "xx by yy" cats are what needs this feature the most.
before wmf takes on development of these much needed functionalities, we can only survive on these little hacks, lol. RoyZuo (talk) 14:03, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Adding it to a widely used template like Metacat may be a good idea but many of the relevant cats don't have it. Still I don't think the second link is useful rather than very-rarely-useful bloat that often confuses users.
Another issue is that by default it opens the image tab but this may also be useful for video categories and cats with mixed contents etc so I think these two things would be very useful: 1. a way to see or tab for 'all media' in MediaSearch 2. a parameter to specify which mediatype to open for this template when the user clicks "Preview all images" (currently it opens the image tab). Both of these would also be useful for the category-searchbox as it could then use the better newer MediaSearch. See phab:T378756; also asked about it here. Prototyperspective (talk) 21:10, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, I dont think it's possible to build interactive templates that can allow users to pick filters and then generate a corresponding link. such things have to be built with js. on one hand i dont have the knowledge; on the other it's not sure a gadget would definitely be enabled for all website visitors. I'm motivated to make these little tools to save my own time clicking/typing, and just happy that they can also help some users along the way. RoyZuo (talk) 19:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure which part of my comment you were addressing. In the searchbox template for example it's specified that the file namespace is searched. In the same way one would specify which media-type is searched when clicking the button so that when adding it to category Videos of xyz the Video tab is opened instead of the image one. The phab issue is probably about a code change. I did not write about a gadget so I don't know what you were referring to there. Prototyperspective (talk) 19:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tried adding it to Category:Logging in Washington (state) by county and it doesn't seem to work usefully there. (On the other hand, it worked fine on Category:Pike Place Market by decade). - Jmabel ! talk 02:46, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What's the issue with the first cat? It seems to work fine and seems to show all images. Prototyperspective (talk) 09:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, working now. It wasn't (said there were no images). - Jmabel ! talk 18:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like the subcategories were added just recently to the cat: it always takes a while like a day or so until deepcategory shows newly added files or subcategories. Prototyperspective (talk) 18:33, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tmbox improvments

Hello, so I wanted to share some proposed changes to Tmbox that would harmonise it with mbox. This would be useful when we decide to migrate Mbox to Module:Message box. Due to the unfortunate way templatestlyes works, I can't show changes side-by-side, but here's the changes with old Tmbox and my version. With the old version, there is quite a bad contrast with mbox since one has an inline border but one doesn't, which is especially noticed on talk pages, but my version fixes that. Also, it synchronises the colours with mbox with design tokens. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 19:17, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For me this looks fine but with this I would also change all colors to use the codex colors. GPSLeo (talk) 10:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did, however some of the border colours can't be codex since codex doesn't have a good equivalent. See Module:Message box/sandbox/tmbox.css. —Matrix(!) ping onewhen replying {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 12:04, 30 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Broken upload?

A new user has uploaded an image, which can be seen at:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/R._I._Pocock.jpg

but there is no image at File:R. I. Pocock.jpg. What happened, and how can it be fixed? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:36, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is here: en:File:R. I. Pocock.jpg --тнояsтеn ⇔ 20:55, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you - now, why didn't I think of that? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 01

Commons Gazette 2024-12

  • Currently, there are 180 sysops.
  • Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) is hosting a series of community calls to help prioritize support efforts for 2025-2026 Fiscal Year. Next calls will be held at 08:00 and 16:00 UTC, 12 December 2024. Join and have your say!

Edited by RoyZuo.

Commons Gazette is a monthly newsletter of the latest important news about Wikimedia Commons, edited by volunteers. You can also help with editing!

--RoyZuo (talk) 08:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found a really strangely formatted file

This file File:Shikaumi Jinja Torii up20060426.jpg was uploaded in 2006 and appears to not have standard data formatting. Can someone fix it? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (please tag me) 15:51, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Immanuelle: Do you mean with regards to the Summary section? I'm afraid you'll find a tremendous amount of files that were uploaded in the early days of Commons before upload forms were standardized that look like this. I'll fix this one but this is an expansive job to correct all of them. Bastique ☎ let's talk! 16:19, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bastique Yeah that is what I meant. Thank you for fixing it. Is there any proposal to make a bot that fixes these early uploaded files? Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (please tag me) 17:03, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since most of the files in question were uploaded more than 10–15 years ago, the clear answer would be obviously not, or the problem would have been corrected by now. Then there's still the problem of mass uploads that are poorly described and/or poorly categorized. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 22:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

CropTool not working again

I've tried to use CropTool a number of times lately. Instead of simply opening up the file, it takes me to a dialog box asking me to enter the filename. Nothing happens when I do that and press the "Go" button. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 23:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 02

A type of monument that needs a category

All of the above are examples of a type of monument very common in Washington State, and which I'm sure also exists elsewhere: a cross-section of a large tree, covered by a shed. They are variously monuments to loggers who died in work accidents, monuments to the logging industry in general, or even just science/history-oriented displays of the trees themselves. We should have a category for these, but I don't know what to call it. I suspect there is no standard term, but if there is then I'd love to get it right. - Jmabel ! talk 02:16, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

waymarking.com (Internet Archive's Wayback Machine) defines them as "Tree ring displays" "Tree Growth Ring Displays", but this category also includes tree rings without sheds. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 05:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Donald Trung: that would apply to the last one (File:Mt Rainier Nat'l Park — Douglas Fir Historical Timeline (2021-09-04), 01.jpg) because it labels dates on the growth rings, but I think not to the others. - Jmabel ! talk 19:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jmabel: , according to the Tyrolean website www.Kaiserhotels.com (Internet Archive's Wayback Machine) uses the term "Wooden fountain", though I'm not sure if they're talking about the display or an actual fountain made of wood, the Tyrolean hotel's wooden fountain is apparently the largest in the world, but searching for the term I only find actual fountains made of wood... According to the American website m.Wikipedia.org the one on display here is called a "cross section on exhibit", so following this website's model we could use the category title "Cross sections on exhibit", but that would also include tree cross sections not covered by a shed, so it's still more ambiguous than what you intend to categorise, but it should be a sub-category of that ("Category:Cross sections on exhibit"). You could make the broader category provisionally and then move it to the more narrowly defined category after you've discovered the correct term.
For context, I use Google Lens in Google Photos to search, I just take the image and look for similar images, if I find a term used in Google Photos I then Ecosia it for similar results, unfortunately, no name has been consistent. I can't find a name that has been repeated a lot with this specific type of image, if I can find something better using Google Lens I'll write about it here. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "wooden fountain" is a fountain, that's why it is called like that. Doesn't help in our case. --тнояsтеn ⇔ 20:10, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I asked Google Gemini to define the structure, this is all the robot told me. "The structure in the image is a cross-section of a redwood tree. - A cross-section is a slice through an object that reveals its internal structure. In this case, the cross-section shows the tree's rings, which can be used to determine its age." - Google Gemini. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also asked Google Gemini to describe the first image for me, it said: "The image shows a large cross-section of a tree trunk displayed under a wooden shelter. - The structure is likely a tree stump display or tree stump exhibit." All these terms are a lot more ambiguous as they can include displays without the wooden shed, for example inside of a museum or on a sort of pedestal or podium. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add Category:Cross sections of trees on exhibit so we at least have a place to gather these, even if not ideally named. We do already have Category:Cross sections of trees. - Jmabel ! talk 19:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like that name would invite some confusion with tree cross sections which are on display in other contexts, like in natural history museums - the "monuments" you're describing in Washington State are something a bit different, and I feel like it does make sense to keep them separate for the moment. Perhaps Category:Logging monuments in Washington State? Omphalographer (talk) 20:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Omphalographer: I gave it subcats. Have a look. - Jmabel ! talk 20:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brakes

I must be using the wrong search word, as I cant find find a category for brakes. Also File:Brakes Valve1.jpg has no category.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Category:Brakes Wouter (talk) 10:16, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thanks, Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect File:Brakes Valve1.jpg is in the Category:Brake master cylinders.Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's inappropriate to ask about this at villagepump, even more so when the category is just called "Brakes" like the section title and basically the first thing one would look for, and further even more so to remove the issue is solved template despite it obviously being solved. I suggest categories you find interesting are promoted elsewhere, if no place for that exists you could create such a category. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
disagree. I find Smiley.toerist's questions frequently interesting. Users who don't like them can read some other stuff.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 16:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is lots of stuff on villagepump, maybe it would be good to have a separate page about casual talk. I was not talking about Smiley.toerist's questions. I was talking about this question. Lots of people watch VP. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How to categorize, where was a picture taken, what does it represent are useful questions.
 ∞∞ Enhancing999 (talk) 16:33, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said 1. if the solution is pretty self-explanatory and in the section title it's not a good thread to begin with 2. it's pretty niche and doesn't need this much attention etc when there are lots of problems to solve etc 3. again, if it was a valid thread that doesn't mean it does to bloat this long page more by inappropriately removing the thread solved template when the thread is solved.
Moreover, maybe it would be a good idea to put these kinds of questions onto a separate page so this here is more focused on e.g. project-wide subjects and only get the question if it remains unsolved where it was asked earlier. Prototyperspective (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re the image, I don't think that the depicted part is a brake, it looks much more like a "PZB-Fahrzeugmagnet" to me - the device over which the vehicle's train protection system communicates with the infrastructure (via electromagnetic induction). See the second image on de:Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussung (or en:Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussung) Looks like Category:Intermittent train control systems is a better fit. ~TheImaCow (talk) 18:09, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May be best to ask about what this is (different question than what has been asked here) at en:Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains or in this case with this info at en:Talk:Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussung. Prototyperspective (talk) 18:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are right. It is an "Indusi" not a brake. For a magnetic track brake also the mounting would be too weak (and badly positioned outside the bogey). --тнояsтеn ⇔ 20:14, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Search for image orientation and similar parameters

I've got an interesting question: "How can I search for a specific topic and only images which have portrait orientation?"

Seems normal search is not very smart, it can at least use semantic data somewhat, but not complex parameters, including image size, aspect ratio and orientation. Is there any way to search based on media technical data as well? --grin ✎ 16:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

December 03

RIP JarrahTree

I'm sad to announce the passing of JarrahTree, an admin and regular contributor here. There's an English Wikipedia obituary of him and someone here might want to create one on Commons too. Graham87 (talk) 10:05, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still in shock, even though I received the news a couple of hours ago. I have added JarrahTree to Commons:Deceased contributors. He will be dearly missed and my condolences go out to his family, friends and colleagues. Bidgee (talk) 10:34, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
rest in peace. my condolonces to his family. modern_primat ඞඞඞ ----TALK 11:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for notifying us, Graham. My brief interactions with him were pleasant. Condolences to family and friends. Abzeronow (talk) 18:03, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification Regarding the Appearance of the "Infobox" Template

When the site is displayed in the Arabic language, the "Infobox" template is shown by default on the right side of the page. However, there may be a need to adjust this layout to appear on the left side, either to suit specific design preferences or to ensure consistency with content in other languages.-- Mohammed Qays  🗣 19:48, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Peel: This would be a good idea for languages that read right to left. Abzeronow (talk) 20:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cooked food in supermarkets

Category:Cooked food in supermarkets is now used for a concept in Chinese supermarkets. I'm not sure how applicable this is for other countries.

The concept is, food that is sold like those sold in food shops/restaurants. They are ready for consumption. They can be consumed on site; or within a few days, usually not more than a week. Factory-packaged cooked food like canned food, frozen pizzas, frozen nuggets, biscuits, chips, tiramisu, ice cream etc. is not the scope of this category. For cooked food for sale similar to this concept but in other countries, I've only seen "siu mei" and roast chicken sold in Singapore NTUC fairprice, and sushi and baked goods sold in German supermarkets. In very rare cases I saw a German supermarket with a few food shops inside selling sandwiches, pastry and drinks.

There's the potential ambiguity of the current cat title (which can refer to all packaged non-raw food). What's your suggestion? Should we keep this title, or do you have an alternative proposal? RoyZuo (talk) 22:52, 3 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of US supermarkets have onsite delis with cooked food like this. Actual seating is more rare, but I recall seeing it. Complicating it some is places like Walmart and Target often have Subways or McDonalds or Pizza Huts or Starbucks inside them.--Prosfilaes (talk)

December 04

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Village_pump&oldid=965481994"